Education behind bars with Rhea Ballard-Thrower: How can learning transform the lives of incarcerated individuals?

Today we’re speaking with Rhea Ballard‑Thrower, the driving force behind the Inside‑Out Prison Exchange Program at UIC Law. She’s bringing law students and incarcerated individuals together in the same classroom for a transformative educational experience from the inside out. 

Welcome, Rhea,  

Rhea Ballard-Thrower  0:42 

Thank you.  

Grace Khachaturian  0:43 

So excited to have you on the podcast today. I think we are discussing a really interesting topic that needs to be talked about. We’re going to unpack the curiosity of how learning can transform the lives of incarcerated individuals and create that ripple effect. Before we dive into that, I would love to begin our time together today to understand a little bit about your story. Tell us about your why.  

Rhea Ballard-Thrower  1:07 

I have been engaged in teaching the incarcerated for a little over eight years, and I was introduced to it by a faculty member at Howard University. But I think the reason why I was so attracted to be a part of this unique educational experience is because I profess to be a Christian and one of the tenants of Christianity is that we all make mistakes, and we all need to be forgiven. And so this is a way for me to put myself in a place that that I could recognize that we are all in this together. None of us are perfect, and if someone is willing to take those steps to change, or, you know, to do things differently from the past, then I can use the position that I’ve been given to help them to make that change. 

Grace Khachaturian  2:03   

I love that. At what point did that perspective enter your life and begin to influence the work that you do? 

Rhea Ballard-Thrower  2:11 

I think probably because, you know, I’ve been raised this way for all of my life, and my parents are very much engaged in giving back in their communities and doing things. So that was always a part of my life. I think what was unique is that now this was an opportunity in which I could do something on a grander scale, you know, other than, let’s say, going to a food kitchen or, you know, doing activities through my church. You know, my brother and I grew up doing all of those things with my parents, but this was something I could use professionally as a way to give back. And so I think that was a unique opportunity that presented itself. 

Grace Khachaturian  2:49 

For sure. And at what point did restorative justice enter your story? 

Rhea Ballard-Thrower  2:55 

Oh, wow. I think I would probably say that was the impact of working at Howard. You know, I was there almost 20 years. And I think literally, the whole history of that university was that it was created right after the Civil War ended. So was started in 1867, the war ended in 1865 and it was the idea for the recently freed enslaved people to uplift themselves and then support their communities and uplift the community. So when you’re involved in a whole academic experience that is all about restorative justice, you know, then you take that with you. And so that was one of the wonderful opportunities and why I was so attracted to UIC was because they were already engaged in doing this, you know, through our department of criminology. You know, the faculty here are, by the way, were already well known. I literally was using their textbooks in my course at Howard by UIC faculty. So this was just a great synergy for me to come to this university, to actually work with some of the people that I actually use their textbook, because they were already teaching in Stateville prison, they were teaching in Logan, they were already doing these things. So I think that was the idea of that, you know, restorative justice was introduced to me at a different university, but then to build on upon it coming here, which has been such a great experience, 

Grace Khachaturian  4:27 

Yeah. Okay, let’s talk a little bit about the Inside Out program and how it all began. 

Rhea Ballard-Thrower  4:33 

Yeah. So it was created in 1997 by a criminology professor at Temple University. Her name is Lori Pompa, and so she got the idea of taking her criminology students one day, she would take them to the jail or the prison, and they would have this, like visit with some of the incarcerated people, and then she go back, and then she talked to the students, and then they talk about the experience and and it, just as you can imagine, just developed, because the students would say, oh my gosh, it was so amazing. It was transformative. And this is just one day. And so eventually she did this for several years, and one of the incarcerated residents, by the way, we call them residents Paul. We call him Mr. Paul, and he basically approached Laurie and said, Have you considered making this a semester course instead of just having the students come one time? Have you thought about having them come more often? And the two of them developed what we now call inside out.  

It is now an international program. It is a full week’s training. They do it online and on site in Pennsylvania, and you go and it’s just amazing, because you spend the week actually at a facility, and then the incarcerated residents teach you. It’s a train the trainers program, many of them are there before Pell one. So we actually had instructors who had PhDs.  

Grace Khachaturian   6:04 

Wow. Yeah, that’s remarkable. 

Rhea Ballard-Thrower   6:07 

It’s phenomenal. And so they teach these professors how to teach this course. So it’s very extensive. You have to come with your syllabi. You have to come with, I mean, you come with all the stuff. You have to have cons. You just don’t show up. You literally have to have all of this idea as to what I think my course is going to be. And they sit down and that week they work with you. This is about your course. This is how it’s going to work. How are you going to do this? You know, they literally walk you through from the day one to how you’re going to assess the students, how are you going to put your students together, how these dynamics are going to work. So at the end of the week that you feel very, very comfortable about taking inside students, outside students, into a facility. So in the fall semester I have the men’s division, and then in the spring semester we do the women’s division. So we do it twice a year. 

Grace Khachaturian  6:55 

What’s the importance of a program like this, and what impact does it have on incarcerated individuals or resident students? 

Rhea Ballard-Thrower  7:03 

Yes, so research has already proven it’s all about recidivism, right? We know we’re trying to break that cycle of, you know, you’re incarcerated, you get out, then a couple years, go back, and then you’re back, and then you’re and this cycle has just been constant. You know, they come in, they go out, they come back in, they come back out, and education has always been one of those stop gaps, and the research proves it. This is not new. I mean, there’s like 20-30 years worth of research that says that if you incarce, you educate the incarcerated, it gives them an opportunity to break that cycle. And so that’s one of the things that I love about this program, is because we do not water down the course. It is literally the same class that I would teach the law students at UIC law. I literally pick up that course and just take it into the facility. I don’t change it. It’s the same class, it’s the same assessments, it’s all the same thing. So that and I jokingly tell my law students, you know, get ready, because there’s some of the brightest minds are behind bars.  

And these people are exceptional, you know, and then they’re very dedicated and very thoughtful that they’ve been given this opportunity to participate in an educational course that’s not high school. You know, the idea to take a collegiate level course inside a facility is very unique and special, and therefore they take it very seriously. I have been asked questions, and jokingly, I’ve told my students where one of my inside students asked me a question. I’m like, where did you get that? And they’re like, Oh, that was in the footnote on page 22 I’m like, Oh my gosh, that’s how impressive they are. Every semester, I’m just blown away. But their dedication and their drive to learn. 

Grace Khachaturian  8:58   

Have you heard of stories and kind of testimonies of individuals inside students that have gone through the program and the impact it’s had directly on them and their story. 

Rhea Ballard-Thrower  9:10   

From a student who eventually went on and became a paralegal, and so she sent me a card, which was really lovely, just to say thank you, and to how this helped her break the cycle. But I do want to say this is really interesting, in carceral facilities, they have a lot of rules and guidelines about contact, so one of the major components of the program is that we cannot use it for research. So I don’t like, I don’t have all of these articles about these are my students. This is what their scores were. This is what they did before. This was the impact. We are literally not allowed to use them for research, also for some of the facilities, you cannot have contact with them for two to three years outside, and part of it is safety. They want to keep the instructor safe, you know, so it’s rare, honestly, when I do hear from the students, because I think they are so conscious of the fact that the facility tells them to not have contact with us outside.  

Grace Khachaturian  10:10 

But I’m sure you can see just in the moment that you’re interacting with them, the impact is probably evident even in the midst of it happening. 

Rhea Ballard-Thrower  10:19 

Absolutely and you know, even then we do our annual assessments at the end of a course, and we can tell, I mean, you know, I tell my students that the inside students, I don’t know it’s a proverb, but, you know, teach the man to fish and he will, yes, you know, fish for He’ll feed himself forever. That’s really what this course is about. For me personally, because, and I say this to them, I said I it’s a very small course, by the way, because it’s only 15 students on the inside, 15 law students on the outside. So I teach 30 students, so 60 a year, that’s it. And as a result, I tell my inside students that all these skills, all these things you learn in this course, you have to teach it to someone else.  

You know, go on your floor, go on your tier. Teach them. This is what a legal citation looks like because a lot of them, they see all these documents, they don’t know what they mean. You know, tell them. This is how they could fill out their form. So when they have a law library there, but a lot of times, the law librarians say the things they ask for is not clear the question, so they don’t know how to respond because the question isn’t written well enough. We do all of that for them. And so now, at least I now I have 15 students in the next semester, I have 15 more, and my goal is to build a core these students at the Cook County Jail, who therefore can teach other ones to say, hey, this is what a citation looks like. If you want to find more cases on your particular topic, this is what you need to ask the law library for. So in that regard, I can totally see it. I mean, at the end of the semester, and they’ll come back and tell me, Oh, look at all the cases I pulled up, and I’m like, Yes, 

 You know, that kind of thing. So that’s wonderful. But as far as you know, what happens to them outside? I wish I could find more of that out, but I believe in my heart that I know it has an impact on them because I see it inside. 

Grace Khachaturian  12:10 

It is so cool too how you’re training them for that ripple effect impact, and I love what you’re mentioning of, when you teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. And I love that thought, rather than feed a man a fish, feed him for a day, I think that’s so interesting. Yeah, I think that’s a great analogy to put next to this. What kind of response have you had for your law students in this program? 

Rhea Ballard-Thrower  12:31  

Well, I think the fact that I have a waiting list the students have to apply is such the buzz. I mean, even some even right now, I have people still pleading cannot get in. That to me, tells me it’s been really effective. Besides, they also have an assessment, and they constantly tell me…I mean, I literally have students who will say I wasn’t thinking criminal justice before I took this course, and now I want to be a public defender. I mean, mind blowing impact that this has had on some of our students just having that one-on-one relationship with someone who’s incarcerated. And so from the law student perspective, that was always my goal, because we do a great job of teaching students about the criminal justice process, about criminal law, but to sit in a room with someone who has actually experienced it in a way that your colleagues. See, law schools do a great job, we have amazing clinics at UIC, you know, we have a housing clinic, we have criminal justice clinic. All those are wonderful, but you’re really like the baby lawyer, and so it makes the experience a little different, because you’re going in there to help them, but you’re representing them. This is different, because you’re the classmate. And so I think it makes them much more comfortable. And when we get into certain discussions about, you know, do you need, you know, responding to a search warrant, you know, all these things that could happen, and I think they feel more comfortable saying, Well, you know, in my experience, this is what I think. Or they’ll do a lot of hypotheticals. Well, hypothetically, blah, blah, blah…that I’m not too sure they would say those things when it’s a clinical experience, because they realize you’re the lawyer, you’re representing me. You know, I don’t know if they would feel as comfortable when it’s just, you’re just my classmate. And let’s just talk about this topic. 

Grace Khachaturian  14:26 

And what kind of impact has this program had on you over the years? 

Rhea Ballard-Thrower  14:31 

So at the end of every semester, I cry, and everybody knows this, my TA was like, Oh my gosh, she’s like, handing me tissues. I mean, you know so I tell my students, the inside students, as well as outside students, that that is, to me, one of the most amazing things about this course, it’s not about what I can do for them, it’s what they do for me. And it goes back to what I originally when I said why I felt the need to be involved in this is because it’s to give them an opportunity to say, you can change. It’s okay, you know, you know. I we one of the things about the program is that we’re not allowed to know why they’re there. And sometimes the men and the women volunteer on their own. They can, but typically, I don’t know, don’t ask. And that’s not the purpose of the course. But the idea that when they come to me and say things like, I want to start my own business, because we have business sessions, I want to do this. I hadn’t thought about this, you know, it tells me that I’m really having that impact on them, which was literally my goal, to know that it’s okay. We all make mistakes, but if you’re willing to meet us halfway, we’re there to help pull you up and say, here’s an opportunity. Here’s another door that you can try instead of when you get out, because that’s the thing they’re all going to get out. And when you get out, let’s have some other avenues for you to take instead of that. You know, destructive recidivism, that cycle, that will just bring you back in. So, yeah, it, it’s very emotional for me at the end, and so I usually cry. 

  Grace Khachaturian 16:13 

It just reflects the impact it has on all sides. Now, in this conversation I just hear really the story of redemption woven throughout the work that you’re doing, with your own belief system but in the way that you are just presenting a cool opportunity for people inside a place where they maybe didn’t expect something like this. But how has this theme of redemption and almost restoration entered this kind of program?  

Rhea Ballard-Thrower  16:43 

I would say initially because I teach a skills course. And that’s one of the things thats a little different than some of the, you know, we’re not the ones that teach in Cook County. I mean, in fact, I believe all the areas universities teach you know Loyola, UChicago, Northwestern, everyone has faculty who teach there. But one of the things thats unique about my classes is that it’s a skills class. Which means I’m teaching them something that they can use to either assist their ownselves when they want to because many of them like to represent themselves in their own cases or to help out one of their friends on their tier. I think that’s where this all ties in for me. It goes back to the fish analogy. Because I use this as an opportunity to say this can represent that change in your life, this can represent the redemption because you now have somethin that you have of value that you can pass on to somebody else. You know, so not only have you been changed, but that’s part of it. It’s step one, now you have to take the next step and help someone else if they too wanna have that redemption, if they do also wanna change. That you can have a skill now that you can pass on to someone else and uplift them. So you know it’s like I can uplift them but you know when I’m literally, my mind thinks about wow that guy or that female that person goes out and teaches somebody else who teaches somebody else who teachs somebody else. It’s like wow. It’s like my one little class. I mean how much impact we can have.  

Grace Khachaturian  18:21 

Just a catalyst for impact. In a similar thought process, what do you hope your inside students, if they were to just believe one thing about themselves, what do you hope it is that they believe about themselves from this opportunity? 

Rhea Ballard-Thrower  18:34   

That they are smart enough and capable to do collegiate level work. We have an education system where many of these people have been told that they’re dumb, that they’re not smart, that they’re not capable. So when they get out of this, I’m like, not only did you take a collegiate class, you took a law school course, and you, you know we were grading, you aced this class. And if anything, that’s what I want them to get out of it. And many of them have told me that, that when they get out, they want to go to Chicago Community College. They want to get their associate’s degree, and I’m like, do it. You’re capable. You can totally do this work. And I think, if anything, that’s what I want them to know that as far as academics, they are totally capable of doing this. 

Grace Khachaturian  19:20  

Isn’t it crazy? The impact of what we believe about ourselves, how that influences how we live and who we believe we can be 

Rhea Ballard-Thrower  19:29 

Exactly, exactly. And I think it’s also the fact of what impact teachers. My mother was a teacher, kindergarten teacher, and so what impact a teacher, professor, instructor, can have good and bad on what you just said, on that long term effect of whether I think I’m capable of doing something, if I have enough people when I’m young telling me I can’t, I can’t, I can’t, then I get there, I take another means that I’m really good at but unfortunately, it’s criminal behavior, but I’m really good at that. I take that path rather than this other path, because I’ve been told that you’re not capable of doing that, and so isn’t it nice when somebody says, Oh no, you are capable of doing that, and you can excel at that. So once again, you open another door. So when they leave, they can say, You know what? Imma go that way instead of this other way. 

Grace Khachaturian  20:22 

Now, for the individuals just listening to this that have never even heard of a program like this, but community members, students that are just so fascinated by the work that you’re doing, what concept would you hope they pull from this? 

Rhea Ballard-Thrower  20:35 

I think it’s two one of which we talked about is that, because of, for me personally, it’s religious base is a way to, you know, support those in our community who may need a second chance. But the other one is, and this is really basic, they’re going to get out. Do we not want to live in a comfortable, safe society? I’ve never quite understood why we think as a concept that if a person is done wrong, we stick them in a facility and they sit there and literally just sit, and then they’re released, and somehow magically, their world is going to be different. It’s not going to change, and that’s why we have this awful cycle of recidivism. They get out, they commit crime, they go back in, they get out, they commit crime. If you want to stop that, this is just one of the amazing ways to do it. Education works. It works, which means it makes us safer as people out in society, because now you’ve released someone who has a skill or an opportunity to then, therefore, say, I will not do those destructive behavior that I did before. 

Grace Khachaturian  21:40 

So education behind bars can literally transform lives and our society over time. It’s amazing the impact that this can have. Well, Rhea, I’m so inspired. I just think that the work that you’re doing and the opportunity that you’re creating for a catalyst of impact is incredible, and I’m just very inspired. So we like to end each episode on a fun note. So if you were to pick a theme song. That best represents your life. What song would you pick? 

Rhea Ballard-Thrower  22:12 

It actually would be Fight the Power.  

[MUSIC: Public Enemy’s “Fight the Power”]  

Grace Khachaturian  22:28 

Awesome. Well, Rhea, thank you so much for your time here today. I’m sure many will leave this conversation feeling as inspired as I have been. 

Rhea Ballard-Thrower  22:35 

Yeah, it was wonderful opportunity for me to share about a phenomenal program. So thank you for that opportunity.  

Grace Khachaturian 22:42 

Find out more about Rhea and the Inside-Out program in the show notes for this episode at today.uic.edu. 

[MUSIC: Public Enemy’s “Fight the Power”]